A Caller to My Radio Show Asks Why I Kicked Him Off My Facebook Page



This audio clip is from a recent show in which a caller wanted (I think) to publicly put me on the spot over why I “de-friended” him on Facebook. As you’ll hear, the reason was because of some things he said to some of the women there about their having had an abortion.

The problem was that he branded such women as “murderers” because 1) abortion is murder and 2) they had aborted one or more of their children. His logic is correct, at least in a sense, because abortion is murder. But the way he put that logic into practice was, in my view, wrong-headed and counterproductive, and in this audio clip, I explain why. Take a listen . . .

What do you think?

Also, for any woman reading this blog post who may be struggling with feelings of grief, self-hatred, and remorse (to name a few common emotional reactions women feel after having had an abortion), I would like to encourage you to get in touch with the following welcoming and very helpful organizations:

82 Comments

  1. Lankester

    She stated it, none of us did! Patrick Madrid MIA, its easy to chime in, but the truth is far more difficult in this culture and apparently with this group of people. Publish all my post Patrick, otherwise you are proving my point. The truth seems lost here, the relavist game appears afoot and Mr. Madrid seems to be playing along.

  2. Diane M. Korzeniewski, OCDS

    I agree with Lisa Gras here, but would throw out one more thought for consideration. As I pointed out earlier, it is sometimes a balancing act. If Patrick felt the behavior and words were coming across in a way that could be harmful to the woman's reconciliation process, I don't think Facebook allows you to simply suspend someone temporarily while you sort it out. I work closely with the Helpers of God's Precious Infants here in Michigan and I have come across well meaning Catholics whose anger was so great over abortion, that they do more damage and win fewer conversions than those who temper that anger in order to do what is needed. Let's face it, when dealing with a woman who is about to step into a clinic, or with a post-abortive woman, you have to set aside any anger and show compassion when it is most difficult. This compassion is only possible through God's grace and it is that love which wins them over. This is why I cannot accept certain anti-abortion methods used by particular groups. They might win someone here and there, but they often do more damage with harsh rhetoric and reminders of murder than those who approach it with love and compassion. One thing that impressed me about the Helpers is that they try hard to counsel women to the crisis pregnancy centers, but they are also there with the Rachel's Vineyard brochures for those women who choose to go through with it after they come out. They do not show anger towards them. And believe me, it is gut wrenching to watch, but in the end, they always "steel-up" and work towards bringing that soul to reconciliation even after the event.What people lose sight of is that God loves that baby even more than we ever could. God also loves the woman seeking the abortion, the abortionist, clinic workers, and all of those who may be pushing the person into the clinic. We, however, will be judged not just on how much we mourn for the loss of the baby, but on how we work to bring about reconciliation through love and kindness. None of this diminishes the gravity or pain of abortion. It's simply how we respond to it.Some just don't get it, and never will.

  3. ms debra

    ok, Patrick, I'm with you. I, too, am on Facebook and I, too, have "Unfriended" people because I didn't like their rhetoric. Facebook is a social community and as such you, and I, have every "right" to "unfriend" anyone we want for any reason we want. It is your page, you get to control who or what you will see. Good for you for not allowing the taunts that I see to often on Facebook.

  4. Lankester

    This is a chorus all singing a different tune. No one wants the truth of the matter, they only want to be heard. This is why I am no longer on Facebook and no longer responding to this travesty of justice and charity. The fact that Mr. Madrid doesnt respond or dialogue speaks volumes. My final post. Shame on you Patrick.

  5. Diane M. Korzeniewski, OCDS

    There has been some focus on how Patrick might have taken a different path. However, I want to point out that there was another approach available to Lankester. First, I would have privately contacted Patrick via one of the public emails he has listed and asked him to help me to understand what might have prompted the "unfriending". Private communication in such cases is prudent. I don't think it was prudent to blindside Patrick by calling into the show for an answer about an incident that happened some weeks or months ago. Perhaps the caller tried several times and only now got through, but I have found Patrick very accessible the few times I have sent email. Further, when communication breaks down and things heat up, it is really necessary to seek an answer with an open mind and with humility. This means, we have to be prepared to accept the fact that perhaps something we said came across differently than we intended. Or, that we were not prudent in the way our point was made, or used an improper tone. This takes even more humility. And, it is how we grow in communication.It's possible that through private conversation, Lankester could have worked through the issue, and been friended once again (or not if he couldn't seem to understand how his choice of words, tone, or lack of prudence was hurtful of others).

  6. Wishing to be anonymous

    Lankester, you write: "She stated it, none of us did!"James writes: "Abortion is murder and those who committ this act are murderers. Period."Practically the whole comment was about women being murderers. And he is a close friend of yours, second to be de-friended.He also says (in a much earlier post)that the caller (you, Mr. Lankester) simply pointed out that anyone who has an abortion is a murderer. The backlash came as a result of this statement from other posters.The truth does indeed seem to be lost but not on us.

  7. Lankester

    You have again allowed the whole conversation to be published out of context pieced it together by your own words and manipulated the truth. The fact that you do not publish my posts as they are presented shows you have been manuipulating us from the beginning. I can't wait until the day when the real truth is revealed.

  8. Mama

    "Your defriending him seems to have resulted in his being fairly upset. Perhaps you could have offered him the gentleness you expected of him in his conversation with the woman. If you simply de-friended him without explanation, I would think that would put you in need of your own very good advice."Oh good grief, are we all just cry babies anymore? This is what we call analysis paralysis and it is of Satan because it wastes precious time. Patrick is fine. He's not perfect like some people expect him to be, so go find a rock and throw it somewhere. Maybe you'll feel better.Do we not have more to have hurt feelings about than THIS? They are WORDS!! No one is taking your food or pillaging your homes. If they are, get off the computer and get your gun.Women who abort and have remorse probably shouldn't "go public" until they are fully recovered from the hopelessness of it….and perhaps even then, only in certain circumstances. If they aren't actively helping other women to recover from the hopeless feelings of abortion, they might discover that it helps them a great deal more than anything else does….(12 step programs agree with this idea). Bottom line is that the last thing anyone wants from Patrick' sites is the "Oprah effect," where we all pat each other on the back and say, "I am so sorry you had to go through that," while the real story that we humans create most of our own problems gets swept under the rug for yet another generation. So, perhaps we can address the sin and help direct the action to enable healing from self-hatred from now on. But, we have to recognize that it is ultimately the individuals problem and they are going to have to find their own solution. It is their spiritual work to do, not ours. That's why we get so personal about it. We want to fix pain. There is no fixing another's emotional pain. It has to be worked through by the pained one.So, we can suffer with the pained by helping them get to the place where they want to do something about it, but entertaining this drive-by thing isn't something we (Patrick or anyone else) has to put up with for any length of time. This isn't Jerry Springer's Blog or FB page. If it was, none of us would be here. While Grumpies need love, they can't be allowed to dominate in an online forum. It's public, like being at a big private party at the Bronco Bowl in Dallas…sort of private, but mostly public….meaning you can't go naked without getting arrested. Gosh, now I've really gone off track! Nevermind.Anyway, it isn't like Lankester is going to be spending every other Saturday helping women at the CPC or anything, out of remorse because people on here called him a big meanie. It would be his deal to figure out in private.Look Lankester, you seem like you're a little grumpy lately. May I suggest you look at Danielle Bean's blog and pick something from her list of "things to do rather than eating the next piece of pie" to avoid doing the next grumpy thing? If you are thin, maybe you can go ahead and eat the pie, but for now my solution is to run when I am in a bad mood.It's taken a long time for me to find this "happy place" but my husband and kids know by looking at me if I need to go run. I am guessing that is exactly what I am about to do. Time to bundle the kids up and go to the gym.Hope everyone has a great New Year!-Cori

  9. Patrick Madrid

    Lankester said, "IDIOT! No one called her a murderer! What dupes!"Thank you, Lankester. I had a hunch that if I said nothing, just waited for a little while, and gave you enough rope, you would eventually let slip and demonstrate what the problem really was on FB and what it really was that prompted me to end your participation there.That hunch paid off. Thank you.

  10. Lankester

    You never wanted the truth you wanted the outcome of your own desire. Shameful Manipulation and Moral Cowardice, and the most important part you still don't have the truth.

  11. hcsknight

    Diane,{Diane M. Korzeniewski, OCDS said…}Re: "The charity shown for this woman, was to cut-off stone-throwers who wanted to "remind others of her sin".- So why was that not done and left at that? Why did Patrick not in private address the issue with the person he felt offended him and the woman? Regardless, your "answers" fail to address two central questions; why was the discussion taking place in the first place and why is Patrick continuing the matter on this blog? Why continue it on his blog if the goal was to end the effects of others who wanted to "remind others of her sin"? Diane, Why would you "LOVE [my emphasis added] to see the original, full dialogue for analysis". And what makes you so sure you would have a "pretty good idea of what I [you] would see"?…. Really, you would love to see the original sin in action? And just how does this differ than other voyeurs of sin?Re: Is Patrick exploiting the case? No. He is a an apologist…- Really? I see references to humility and service, but I see a LOT of sales links… Does the money go to the Church or charities? Why do I not see links to the Vatican's web site, it's Catechism, Cannon, etc.? Re: So, what is your excuse for engaging in the dialogue? Has God given you a special grace to discern each of our motives (and Patrick's) for discussing this topic?- I need no excuse. And engaging a crowd to point out the mobs error is far far different than starting the crowd. As for motive, it should be clear to one whose focus is Christ Crucified… as opposed to "being right".Re: I'm sorry to say that your drive-by swipe reminds me of those who have Catholic bumper stickers on the back of their car, then "salute" someone who might be driving a little too slow as they zoom past.- Ahhhh the self-centered old "dont point a finger at me if you're not perfect" argument… Next you'll be quoting scripture about a how there must be a log in my eye.

  12. hcsknight

    {continued}Diane,{Diane M. Korzeniewski, OCDS said…}Diane, What I see, as I "drive along", going on are some unfortunate effects of mis-interpretations and applications of Vatican II; in short the "cult of personality/protestantization" of the Catholic Church that is taking place; the tremendous increase in confusion that is taking place through personal "apologetics"; the tremendous increase in lay people "making a living" off of being Catholic; and most concerning and dangerous of all the replacement of humilty, reverence, contritness and supplication regarding the Faith – which is most dramatically seen in the way The Bloodless Sacrafice of the Mass is now approached. This has reached the point where heretical celebration is now the part of a very prominent liturgical music book used in many many Catholic Parishes, "Breaking Bread" published by OCP http://cdn.ocp.org/shared/pdf/preview/22080z4.pdf"I myself am the bread of life. You and I are the bread of life, taken and blessed, broken and shared by Christ that the world might live."This was the Eucharistic Communion song during the Mass I attended on Sunday.Diane, so tell me, why is it not okay for me to question intents of those who very very publically hold themselves out to the public, and preach, and teach, and claim to be defending the Catholic Faith, to be calling others to the Catholic Faith… but you are allowed to question my intent? Are you now going to fall back onto that old saw of "he started it" or "Im only giving it the way it was given"?…What I see is more fish claimed to be a part of the school by increasing the variety of classes and ideologies taught.Not by pointing toward the One True Church, it's Magisterium, or the deposit of Faith affirmed by a dogmas and teachings of more than a millenium. Again, where through such blogs, and "twitters", and other things are Charity and Faith being increased? Where is unity increased and the confusion decreased?Did not Christ himself walk into the temple and throw over the tables and take a whip to the "animals"?Arianism enjoyed well over a century of rather strong support by many Catholic Bishops and priests, in fact at one time a majority. Maybe the reason my words sound like a "drive by" has more to do with your iching ears than what I have said.

  13. Mama

    Boys, we're all friends here, right? If it was some girls fighting, we'd hug and give each other bath products, but in your case, maybe power tools would work. Just sayin'…there is a LOT of testosterone here (I love men).Look, Lankester, just ask Patrick if you can be allowed back on and "mind your p's a q's" when he allows you back on.Patrick, maybe go on one of your long walks and find a bad dog to kick. Ruff ruff.Seriously, that was below the belt to go on Patrick's call-in show with this. Patrick, maybe you'll see your screener instead of a bad dog!You are both fine people who can do better than this. Can we give it another try? Pleeeeeeeeeeeease. I love happy endings and if either of you ever want to fight, ask my hubby if he thinks I have time and we'll argue until the cows come home.So…friends?

  14. Diane M. Korzeniewski, OCDS

    @hcsknight: Good heavens – I think you opened at least a half-dozen, unrelated rabbit holes, not to mention judged intent (wrongly) once again in several areas. I'm not going to head down any of those rabbit holes. Have a blessed and peace-filled New Year. May the Mother of God guide us all.

  15. Mama

    Come on, y'all! Does everyone just feel fat right now? We all need to take a nice brisk walk and eat some carrots. The relatives will be leaving soon and we can get back to feeling like ourselves again, so let's cut each other some slack today. I'm really leaving this time….maybe.-Cori

  16. Diane

    Ohhhhhkay, after that "IDIOT" comment and subsequent comments by the same party, I've changed my mind completely. The caller seemed inoffensive enough over the phone, which was why I urged rapprochement. But OTOH the caller's combox comments here…well, the level of vituperation has steadily escalated, let's just put it that way. No one has to put up with verbal abuse and personal insults. If someone verbally abuses and insults you on Facebook or anywhere else, then you have every right to show that person the door.I've unfriended only one person on FB. That person became abusive and insulting, which actually provided me with the perfect pretext for unfriending him. I had been wanting to unfriend him earlier, but I hadn't wanted to hurt his feelings. He was a rabid anti-semite and conspiracy theorist who posted all this anti-semitic vitriol, and it embarrassed and disturbed me to log on and encounter all these crazy anti-semitic rants. However, I'd been too woossy to unfriend him. Then he insulted me, and, as Eliza Bennet would say, he thereby spared me the pain I might have felt [in unfriending him] had he behaved in a more gentleman-like manner. :)After I unfriended him, he sent me a vicious little private message informing me that I didn't know what I was talking about because Jews aren't really Jews or some such crazy thing. As Patrick says, if you wait long enough, the true colors do begin to show.

  17. Susan L

    Cori, Patrick did nothing wrong here. Lankester made it public by going on the radio. He has not once said anything about taking this to private emails. (I know you mentioned this). These guys went after Patrick. He never said who this guy was. Lankester did that himself.Now, having been shown where he has not been entirely truthful (and that's putting it mildly) nor charitable, Lankester and his buddies are swarming here to build up lots of strawmen.Let's call it for what it is, ok? Diane, if I don't get another chance to say this…I think you did a fine job of posting. It's been very interesting watching how this has played out. And how certain posters don't have the integrity to address the issues the way they should.

  18. Patrick Madrid

    I normally don't take the time to respond at great length to things like this, but I've made an exception in this case. Unfortunately, the Blogger software has a character limit on comments, and mine exceeded that, so here is a link to the entire response to Lankester, James, and hcsknight:My response.http://www.patrickmadrid.com/response_to_certain_comments.htm

  19. Susan L

    Can I make one last clarification? When I spoke of how certain posters don't have the integrity to address issues the way they should…I was not speaking of Cori. I realized afterwards that it looked wrong. (Sorry, Cori.)

  20. Lankester

    Liar.

  21. Diane M. Korzeniewski, OCDS

    Was able to read it by copy/paste of the link provided. The live link doesn't work for me. Thanks, Patrick. Well said.

  22. Mama

    Susan, don't worry about it.Lankester, have you been hurt by abortion? If so, would you like someone to talk to about it.-Cori

  23. Susan L

    Lankester, it was not Patrick who lied. Shame on you.

  24. Carrie L

    Wow!First, my dear Pat let me say, it's your facebook page/blog, add the friends you wish, delete the friends you wish. As long as I've known you I have supported your ministry and I am thrilled that for a short time I was actually a part of it. No one defends the faith with more God given grace and charity than you do. I for one am glad you have a microphone, a magazine, a blog, etc. You have my love, my support, my prayers, and my appreciation for all that you do.Second, isn't it amazing how much discourse we can have between people who have essentially the same beliefs? Why do you think that is? Now it is true that Jesus came to divide the wheat from the shaft, the lambs from the goats, but did he come to divide the wheat from the wheat or the lambs from the lambs? In my opinion this discourse is not of Jesus' making. If it isn't of Jesus, then where does it come from? Are women who have had abortions murderers? Does knowing the answer to this question change the reality? One day we will all have to stand naked before God. On that day each of us will have a list of sins and what will not matter is whether our neighbor called us murderer, thief, adulterer, stealer, blasphemer, liar, etc… What will matter is the manner in which we committed our sins, and the degree to which we have made satisfaction (repentance) for those sins.My husband and I home school our 5 children including Religion/Catechism. Often my kids will ask me "Mom, if x,y,or z happens under this circumstance or that, is it a sin?" The other day I told them this. “Kids, you have a “problem”. See Mom and Dad have given you the gift of faith. Within the guidelines of that faith we are bringing you up with an understanding of what is right and what is wrong. Our efforts are not flawless, but the faith itself is. You now have the tremendous “problem” of now having to make decisions for your lives based on that upbringing. When you die, and you all will die someday, God will judge you based on what you knew, what you had opportunity to learn and what you then did with your life. To those to whom much has been given, much will be expected."Pat. You keep on doing exactly what you're doing. I love you for it my dear friend.

  25. Jerry

    Brothers and Sisters,Like many other situaions I have seen get way out of hand on FB, or blogs, trying to convey things from behind a keyboard, can be very limiting. It is hard, at times, to discern what one is saying due to the fact that you can not "hear" the tone, or emotion, or personality that is behind the "text"! Try as we may, things can sometmes be taken out of context. Other times, it is clear as day"Lankester said, "IDIOT! No one called her a murderer! What dupes!"It really would have been wise to refrain from responding in a public format in this manner! How is this helping to resolve anything?!Sooner or later it was apparent that emotions were going to run high and both of you were going to trip over yourself! This is good for neither one, the community here, and seems to be leading people to "side" now with the "person" instead of staying on the real issue!.My Brother Patrick, I have a great deal of respect for you as many have. I am surprised at one thing here though."Thank you, Lankester. I had a hunch that if I said nothing, just waited for a little while, and gave you enough rope, you would eventually let slip and demonstrate what the problem really was on FB and what it really was that prompted me to end your participation there.That hunch paid off. Thank you."It would have been better to still remain silent, in my humble opinon, as you seem to have layed in wait, for the opportunity to attack! Gentlemen, are we not all trying to serve the Lord here? And are we all not prone to harsh words and error? I beg of you both, to please…resolve the issue that has now become personal. On that, you are both wrong! Agree to disagree, but you are both fighting the same enemy, who has now trip you into fighting each other.Now, what a witness it would be if you all could have a cup of coffee, very simply get back to the original issue, and come out as team players again, so to speak. What many of us are trying to do is fight a battle against the "principlaites and powers of darknes"… and take a close look at who is winning here! The evil one has dupped us all into arguing amongest ourselves! Has he not?Lord, I pray for all who read this, to in the end come together, in a Spirit of unity, so that we may serve You, Lord and be the witness's You have called us to be. To be the "brothers and sisters" You have called us to be. Lord, if I have angered anyone here I ask forgiveness. I pray for a great outpouriingof Your Holy Spirit on each one so that as we fight the fights that are ahead for us in this new year, we can be one, like You and the Father are One!In Jesus Name..AmenYour Brother In Christ,Jerry KohlbrandBro Jer

  26. Justigirl

    It's me Tina Machado…and I figured out how to post in here…whew this techy stuff is tricky…. :DI remember the original post….I was one of the women who was offended by his "abortion is murder comment" and I called him on it…told him to WHOA his attitude. There was no love, charity, and humiltiy in his post. And he too was offended because I called him on it. He was stating facts and quoting the CCC. … We know the facts…. Living with love and humility is the hardest part of life. Thats what we each need to practice.I often think of Mother Cabrini and ask for her intercession…how she lived her life…looking at Jesus in each person she encountered. That is my prayer for me. Love needs to begin with me.Your sister in Christ,Tina

  27. Dutch

    Abortion is murder plain and simple. People who commit murder are murderers. There are different levels of moral culpability for different situations. I hope and pray that when a mother who had an abortion goes home to Holy God, her unborn child will be the first to greet her into eternity.God Bless you all and I hope you can reconcile.

  28. Thy Handmaid's son

    Dutch, a correction. A person who commits murder is a murderer; yes, you are right. In Christ, we believe that people can be truly reformed and transformed, renewed and remade – that they can put on Christ, the New Man (Gal 3:27). Let me use a less charged example. A man may lie profligately and thus be a liar. But can he never repent, lay down his sin, and at some point – in Christ – become honest and cease to be a liar? Must we always remember his sin against him when the Psalmist hopes that our sins will be remembered no more (Ps 51)? I do not believe this is the case. St. Peter, who abandoned our Lord out of cowardice did not die a traitor and a coward, but a man redeemed in Christ and heroic for Christ's sake. Thus, people who have murdered are not necessarily still murderers, but can be new men remade in Christ, given a new lease on life – still legally responsible for their past acts and still obliged to justice – but no longer need be bound by the past's constraints upon their soul. Continuing to hold someone's sin up to their face after they have repented does not recognize the purpose of speaking the truth, nor does it recognize the redemption worked by Christ.It strikes me as pertinent to our conversation that Jesus, while they cast lots for his clothing, prayed to the Father to forgive his murderers, even making excuses for them (Lk 23:34). It also strikes me as pertinent that meanings "accuser, prosecutor, slanderer," are all bundled together in the Hebrew and Greek words "satanas" and "diabolos."I know whose advocate I'd rather be.

  29. Mama

    Dutch, if you want to talk about your anger about abortion you may email me at corihyland@sbcglobal.net I have gotten some great spiritual direction about this problem from close friends who have been active in the Pro-life movement for decades.Actually, anyone who wants to email me about this…I can find someone for you to talk to if I am busy. It's important that we all get help through these tough times so we can be helpful to the next person in need.Sorry I don't have my real name here. This account was set up a long time ago and I'll have to figure out how to change my name on it.Let's face the new year with fresh eyes.Thanks so much for opening this back up, Patrick. And thanks everyone for being troopers, tripping through this difficult topic. Abortion is war on humanity. War is hell.-Cori Hyland

  30. Wishing to be anonymous

    Oh. Brother.Patrick was right in what he did. Lankester brought it all to the public. If he is offended by being called out, then that is what it is. This is what happens when one tries to humiliate someone in public.Dutch, are you kidding me? Have you not read these posts? Are you a murderer with words? Please do us all a favor and stay away from the abortion mills. You are helping the other side and in my opinion, Satan.The damage you do is incredible. Words do matter, folks. Don't bother saying to me, "God bless you all and I hope you can reconcile." Your words are empty. If you are going to call me a murderer without knowing the facts, without knowing that there was no intent nor understanding, then you fail as a Christian. Go line yourself up with Lankester and his buddies.I am a strong Catholic. I have been there, done that and suffered because of it.I am no murderer. I, along with my child, suffered.Words do matter, folks. I don't know how I'm going to do it but I have to figure out some way to forgive you. Because either you don't know what you do or…you're just heartless and need prayers.

  31. Diane M. Korzeniewski, OCDS

    Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do.

  32. Mama

    I think I might've accidentally sent a post that I didn't mean to hit "post comment" on. Sometimes the enter button messes me up.I hoped it wouldn't show up here, so Patrick, if you get a somewhat helpful but mostly annoying post from me here, please delete it for me.Thanks,Cori

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