80 Comments

  1. Patrick Coffin

    Strange that an UNAPPROVED apparition should be the cause of such loss of time and energy.Strange, too, that one must first feed the Medjugorje Pilgrim Travel Machine with ca$h before one is deemed fit to draw a negative conclusion. Of course, if you do go to Medjugorje, as Diane K and Mark W and many others have done, and *then* draw a negative conclusion, you are a traitor to the Gospa. You need an attitude adjustment.Supporters' emotional investment in this phenomenon is no doubt wedded to their financial investment. Curiously, Bishop Zanic changed his mind — firmly and forever — after initially being disposed to the claims of the seers. This is considered very bad. Yet Father Zokvo (the suspended Franciscan) changed his mind — firmly and forever — after initially being skeptical toward the same claims. This is considered very good.I have not been to Lourdes or Fatima but I accept the verdict of the respective bishops. I have not been to Medjugorje but I accept the verdict of not only the first bishop but also his successor and the multiply enlarged National Bishop's Commission with its 1991 Zadar Declaration, as well as the protocols of the Congregation For the Doctrine of the Faith, which always refer inquirers to the Zadar directives."Non constat de supernaturalitate."Works for me.

  2. tygirwulf

    Why is the Gospa of Medjugorje so wordy? Mary tends to be pretty straight to the point when she appears, doesn't she? How can anyone believe apparitions that appear so often for years, even decades, on end? I have been told that there is a great feeling of peace in the area of Medjugorje, but I have to ask, how many Masses are celebrated there every day? Dozens? Hundreds? Might have something to do with it, eh?

  3. MarkC

    tygirwulf,The Medjugorje detractors (who prefer to strain the gnat rather than look for the camel) often make statements like that – that the positive fruit of Medjugorje follows naturally from the sacramental activity there. I think the point bears some scrutiny.The detractors like to say, yes there are good fruits in Medjugorje – confessions, conversions, vocations, healings, prayer – but this can be attributed to the million or so pilgrims per year, the dozens of masses per day (an estimated 40 concelebrations per day), the hundreds of confessions per day. Even if the devil himself were appearing there – as long as this type of prayerful and sacramental activity is included – you will get vocations, healings, conversions etc.But that begs the question, doesn't it? Why are there a million or so pilgrims per year, hundreds of confessions per day and dozens of concelebrated masses (and healings etc.)? Could it be BECAUSE it is a place of a special annointing and outpouring of grace – A maternal presence and exhortation to faith and conversion?If you can replicate the fruit – simply by scheduling the masses and the sacraments – then go ahead and do it! In the meantime, Medjugorje is known as "the world's confessional", and Bishops attest that if it were not for Medjugorje their seminaries would be half empty, and pastors like Fr. Buchlein attest that lives are changed for the better there!So, the "openminded skeptics" want to deny any positive fruit to a heavenly visitation – however, any negative fruit – a cleric who strays from his vows, or a visionary who makes a cute but potentially tasteless joke or a comboxer who "offends" the ever touchy Patrick Coffin – all of this must be attributed to the apparition. As if a visitation of our Heavenly Mother somehow should cleanse us all from any taint or effect of sin. The Mariologist Mark Mariavelle, who has actually served on investigative commissions of alleged apparitions, responds to this point: …a basic moral integrity, and not an exceptional standard of holiness, is what commission members of Church investigations look for in evaluating the basic conditions for a possible recipient of heavenly visits or messages. The six Medjugorje visionaries, Ivanka Ivankovic, Mirjana Dragicevic, Vicka Ivankovic, Marija Pavlovic, Ivan Dragicevic and Jakov Colo, have been under the "public microscope" for their most of their adolescent and adult lives. They have been interviewed by a countless number of bishops, priests, religious, theologians, and laity. The overwhelming consensus of public opinion for those who have had direct contact with these six visionaries is a profound respect for their manifest integrity, straightforwardness, and the down-to-earth approach to the Christian life and to their experience as visionaries. Theologians who have interviewed the visionaries have likewise concluded to the same obvious presence of moral integrity and personal authenticity (1). Remarkable personal sacrifice rather than personal gain has been the foremost experience of these six people, often at the painful expense of personal privacy and hardship. Daily talks to pilgrims, prayer groups, and healing prayer sessions have been the benchmark of life for the majority of the Medjugorje seers for the last 29 years.

  4. tygirwulf

    Why do so many go to Medjugorje? It started because 6 people claimed to have seen Our Blessed Mother there, and continue to claim such, simple as that. People are attracted to such things and always will be. That people show up for an apparition or supposed supernatural event is no measure of its veracity.Twenty-nine years?! It doesn't take that long to deliver a warning, or a message of encouragement or clarification of Church teaching. Perhaps I should look into this phenomenon more closely.

  5. Lauretta

    The World Youth Days have been responsible for many of the fruits that have been mentioned here but I don't think that anyone is claiming these events to be a supernatural apparition. When people get together with a common goal of deepening their faith, beautiful things happen.

  6. Anonymous

    Healings? I want to see documented evidence on these miraculous healings. If they are indeed real then there will be documents stating such.

  7. Anonymous

    I ask myself, if Mary really did appear in Medjuogrje in 1981, Why did the Church commission after a long process of investigations found no proof of its supernaturality or that they were from God, even with the "so called good fruits"?Maria.

  8. Anonymous

    There are volumes of medically documented healings in the parish office in Medjugorje.There are many different reasons in this particular situation of private revelation as well as others for selecting the second of three choices of judgement….primarily because the other two choices just could not be made. This statement does not mean that it has been proven that no supernatural basis exists, but only that it is not yet established or proven. This means the matter is open to further investigation. This finding was really a compromise between the position of Bishop Zanic and the good fruits, which the events of Medjugorje were producing. Most often it is due to the fact that an ongoing private revelation of importance with as yet unrevealed "secrets" as well as much data involved to be thoroughly examined could not go untainted without taking all of the aforementioned into serious consideration.

  9. Daniel

    If there were volumes of actual "medically documented" healings, you would expect they would have handed them on the various commissions that have been investigating. Yet both bishops seem to have said there is not one single case of a medically documented healing.

  10. Anonymous

    After all this, what exactly has this "apparition" actually told us that is so earth shattering and worthy of belief? Right now, we've got a huge crisis going on and great persecution of our Pope and what do we get from the "Gospa"? Message of 25. April 2010 "Dear children! At this time, when in a special way you are praying and seeking my intercession, I call you, little children, to pray so that through your prayers I can help you to have all the more hearts be opened to my messages. Pray for my intentions. I am with you and I intercede before my Son for each of you. Thank you for having responded to my call."Someone please help me understand why God would go to extraordinary means to come here and have Mary say these banal words. Open our hearts to the messages? What's in them that warrants an open heart? What substance? Pray not for the Pope or the Church, but that we may be able to listen to her messages? I just don't get it. I do get the fact that you have to really go to the ocean to know how the air feels and the sound of the waves. No one can really explain what it feels like to be in a snow storm to someone who's never been in one. However, one does not have to experience these things to believe in their existence. I have personally had people tell me that you have to go to Medjugorje and experience it. I've no doubt that those who go there do have special spiritual experiences.The problem lies in the separation that occurs between two faithful Catholics after one has made their pilgrimage to Medjugorje and one has stayed home. This highly emotional and personal spiritual experience cannot be shared with those who haven't experienced it. It's like going back home after being on vacation and trying to relay the whole experience to your friends – you can't. This is simply part of the human experience and our limitations. However, I believe God acts outside of all of this and frees us all to experience him regardless of money, travel, opportunities. He gives himself freely to us at every Mass at every location around the world. When we receive the Eucharist it is not solely a spiritual or emotional experience. It truly changes us and affect us in ways that surpass simple human emotion. While there are times that we may cry after receiving the Eucharist or feeling God's presence – those are just byproducts – not substance. We are not to rely on our emotions for sustenance. This whole phenomenon is based on feelings and emotions whether it be happiness or fear. If it wasn't, you wouldn't have priests like Fr. Buchlein saying you have to go there to be "converted."S.

  11. Anonymous

    Yes, I have heard about those "volumes". I also know that these so-called healing were sent to the Medical Bureau at Lourdes. Nothing! From http://www.newjerusalem.com/bishop-truth.htm"21. By their fruits. ……They do not know that not one miraculous healing has occurred that could have been verified by competent experts and institutions such as the "Bureau Medical de Lourdes". No one knows of any healed from Herzegovina. Everyone knows that little Daniel, old Jozo Vasilj, Venka Brajcic and others cited in the first books about Medjugorje were not healed."You may feel free to contact the Bureau in Lourdes and ask for yourself. The only way to find truth is to seek it in all honesty.

  12. Anonymous

    What a ridiculous link for any consideration of objectivity. Lourdes nor its diocese has any jurisdiction over Medjugorje. It is (and must be) a completely separate study and examination of all facts. The ignorance and its dissemination only grows to embarrassment here. At least stop spreading the lies and seek out some kind of reputable source.

  13. Daniel

    Lourdes medical board, which has been doing this type of investigation for over 100 years, is not a reputable source? As I understand it, the local bishop, who does have jurisdiction, is the one who submitted the cases to the medical board at Lourdes. He has reported that there has not been one case that can be considered a medical miracle. I believe that he has also indicated that there are cases of persons that were promised a miracle that died when they skipped the operation. This was on the official diocesan website. Obviously some would not consider the bishop as being objective, and rely instead of reports of the parish office as having volumes of documents.

  14. Daniel

    Checking back, it seems Bishop Zanic had reported that Father Laurentin had sent 56 cases to the Lourdes medical board, but all were rejected from being miraculous. "Dr. Mangiapan responded in their Bulletin April 1986, that these dossiers have no practical value, and they cannot be used or considered as serious proofs of the apparitions in Medjugorje. " This was in a Statement by Monsignor Pavao Zanic, Bishop of Mostar-Duvno, published in May 1990.

  15. Louis Bélanger

    @Anonymous (April 26, 2010 10:20 AM)You wrote: “What a ridiculous link for any consideration of objectivity. Lourdes nor its diocese has any jurisdiction over Medjugorje. It is (and must be) a completely separate study and examination of all facts. The ignorance and its dissemination only grows to embarrassment here. At least stop spreading the lies and seek out some kind of reputable source.”I really don’t how and why I should grant an anonymous more credibility than to Mgr Pavao Zanic, the then legitimate authority of the diocese of Mostar who identified his sources. Your moody and unfounded comment is disagreeable. If you have the courage of your convictions and accusations, Mr. or Mrs. Anonymous, please identify yourself, the purported lies and your reputable sources.Otherwise, the ignorance and its dissemination [will] only grow to embarrassment here. Cordially,Louis Bélanger

  16. Anonymous

    I believe discussions about Medjugorje should be constructive and lead to the conclusions that we don't know much at all. Those who are followers of Medjugorje and believe that they have been touched by the grace of this alleged apparition should, if she is truly Mary, at least show the fuits of those graces,which are alleged to have been received at Medjugorje. Conversions are not enough if they are not based in a daily living of a Chrit like life. Humility should be flowing from people who have chosen Christ as their Lord and Savior.Humility is Mary's most precious gem.She is the model of humility. She teaches humility to her children. Those who are truly her children live a humble life. Even when defending something we hold dearly we are to practice charity and humility with others. Maria.

  17. Louis Bélanger

    @DanielHere is the confirmation of Bishop Zanic’s statement concerning the dossier submitted by Rupcic/Laurentin to Dr Mangiapan. « En conclusion, si l’on s’en tient aux normes du Bureau médical, tout ce « dossier » n’a pratiquement aucune valeur… et il ne pourrait tel quel servir… ou tenir lieu d’argument de poids en faveur d’un lieu d’apparitions. » Bulletin de l’Association médicale internationale de Lourdes, Nos 205-206, Avril 1984, p. 14. [reproduced as it is published in the said Bulletin]See also Donal Foley – Understanding Medjugorje : Heavenly Visions or Religious Illusions?, p. 168 – “In conclusion, if we are to follow the norms of the Bureau, this entire dossier is of no practical value and as such would not give grounds for an argument in favour of the apparition.” [word for word would be = “in favour of a place of apparitions”]On April 9, 1985, Dr Mangiapan confirmed to me the said statement in a personal letter. Three years later, in the Bulletin of the CRC, Nr 249, December 1988, I read an interview conducted by Dr Pierre Busson with Dr Théodore Mangiapan. The President of the Medical Bureau spoke to Dr Busson on May 28, 1988. Dr Mangiapan concluded with these words: « On parle de « guérisons miraculeuses » à Medjugorje, mais je n’ai encore eu connaissance d’aucune expertise médicale permettant de conclure à la réalité de ces guérisons, encore moins à leur caractère médicalement inexplicable. Je reste très réservé devant l’attitude de l’abbé Laurentin et des propagandistes de Medjugorje qui continuent à faire état de ces « guérisons miraculeuses », en opposition avec l’ordinaire du lieu. Il faut se garder d’entraîner les catholiques à croire aux apparitions de Medjugorje sans tenir compte du magistère ecclésiastique. Pour ma part, j’attends le jugement de l’Église. » [“One speaks of ‘miraculous cures’ at Medjugorje, but I have not yet known of any medical expertise permitting to conclude to the reality of those cures, let-alone to their medically inexplicable nature. I still have very many reservations about Father Laurentin’s and Medjugorje’s propagandists’ attitudes towards Medjugorje who continue to account for ‘miraculous cures’ in opposition to the Ordinary of the diocese. One should be wary of dragging Catholics into believing in the Medjugorje apparitions without taking into account the ecclesiastical magisterium. For my part, I am waiting for the judgement by the Church.”]I was surprised by the firmness of that declaration and I wrote to Dr Mangiapan who confirmed to me the exactitude and fidelity of his words with Dr Busson : « Dans ce qui a été publié comme venant de moi, il n’y a rien que je n’accepte pas. » [personal letter dated February 17, 1989 – “In what has been published as of my own words, there is nothing that I do not accept.”]I will publish on my blog, with the permission of the Editors of the CRC, the interview given by Dr Théodore Mangiapan to Dr Pierre Busson.Cordially,Louis Bélanger

  18. Anonymous

    I really don’t how and why I should grant an anonymous more credibility than to Mgr Pavao Zanic, the then legitimate authority of the diocese of Mostar who identified his sources.I would be greatly humbled if you would not even consider me in your personally chose person/foundation for "credibility"!!! "Then" might be your operative word to get beyond.So you honestly believe that the medical commission in Lourdes is being sent and is in the process of investigating cases kept by the parish of Medjugorje as implied by your apparently accepted citing of the commenter above??? And Lourdes has how many years (since 1858) to come up with the few, limited, documented "cures" out of the many, many that, by general standards of medical practice been agreed to have no other basis for healing and yet generally agreed to lie within the charism of healing given there? Even your doctor explains the various reasonings why so many Lourdes claimed cures themselves could not rise to absolute proof due to simply differing standards and limitations to different cultural biases of times and medical standards having limitations. And yet, somehow all those other cures have not been dismissed in the tradition of Lourdes or in the mind of the Church. According to Dr. Theodore Mangiapan, President of the Medical Bureau of Lourdes, at least 2,000 of the cures effected at Lourdes have been classified as “extraordinary or inexplicable” by doctors since 1858. Yet they have not been accepted as worthy to be published within their limited parameters. It doesn't appear that those other many have been historially "disqualified" while not meeting "bureau standards"!!! Love the demagoguery in the use of Lourdes' "bureau" while using on the other hand a person of history with the sad experience of having the Church disagree with his lack of Church expected standards for any kind of sole final judgement!! Go figure. Perhaps, on this authority, one ought to follow the same rigorous standards he cites for other purposes within the same larger question!!!!!And you, again, actually find the source cited above credible???Even your own source is, what, 1988/89? And it speaks to some "dossier" in general? And the rigorous particular investigation of each was delved into at what time?? Again…lofty language that reduces itself by its generalized and self incriminating "sources". It's not just that such "sources" rely on worn out partial history that refuses the context necessary for truly objective examination, but they cannot permit themselves the humility to state the obvious – the Church herself has all of that limited "discovery" and has taken a look at that basis for judgement and disallowed it … and has moved on….to look at other things – like real science and the building up of Catholic parish life of the Church all over the world. Ummm, did you sorta conveniently forget that part of the whole?? If you haven't heard as yet – your sole "source" from the past is not the authority over the phenomenon. Are you afraid to venture out into the greater beyond on the topic or something? The parrot needs a few new phrases to repeat over and over! I think they call it "getting up to snuff" on the topic!

  19. Daniel

    So, Father Laurentin, perhaps the foremost promoter of the legitimacy of the apparitions, couldn't get the medical board at Lourdes to accept a single case as a truly miraculous healing. The bishop whose diocese this is occurring in does not accept any, and points out some of the harm that has been done by promises of healing. Toss all that out and rely upon the fact that the parish says it has documented cases, or at least a promoter says they do. This particular "Anonymous" must have quite an investment in the outcome.

  20. Louis Bélanger

    @Anonymous April 27, 2010 4:23 PM You wrote:“So you honestly believe that the medical commission in Lourdes is being sent and is in the process of investigating cases kept by the parish of Medjugorje as implied by your apparently accepted citing of the commenter above???”I wrote:“Here is the confirmation of Bishop Zanic’s statement concerning the dossier submitted by Rupcic/Laurentin to Dr Mangiapan.” I am sorry to repeat myself like the parrot you so kindly evoked. The animal would be quiet if you had read well. What is implied is that “Medjugorje went to Lourdes”, the contrary of what you “understood”, to submit a dossier compiled by the Medjugorje Franciscans who confided it to René Laurentin.You wrote:“Even your own source is, what, 1988/89?” I wrote:My written source: « Bulletin de l’Association médicale internationale de Lourdes, Nos 205-206, Avril 1984, p. 14. [reproduced as it is published in the said Bulletin] ». “1984” Again… well, you know what I mean.You wrote:“And it speaks to some "dossier" in general? My answer: It concerns a dossier of 56 cases that had been published by Fr Ljudevit Rupcic in his book: Gospina ukazanja u Medjugorju (1983). You wrote:“And the rigorous particular investigation of each was delved into at what time??”My answer: Well, Anonymous, you must know better than me. I suppose that the rigorous particular investigation of each was delved into by the Franciscans themselves and their own Commission of experts before the publication of Fr Rupcic’s book… So, between 1981 and 1983. Moreover they felt that the 56 cases had been so rigorously delved into that they let them to be examined by Dr Mangiapan. My non scientific guess…Please ask the pastoral personnel of the parish. They will surely make their archives available to you. You will then have the opportunity to read, search, consult and make your homework as a Medjugorje commentator.With these serene words ends my exchange with someone who continues to hide himself/herself behind "Anonymous April 27, 2010 4:23 PM"Please find another partner who will be comfortable with your disagreeable tone and will share your certitude concerning the worth of the scientific work done by the Comité médical international de Lourdes. [http://fr.lourdes-france.org/approfondir/guerisons-et-miracles/Composition-du-Comite-Medical-International-de-Lourdes]Cordially,Louis Bélanger

  21. Anonymous

    Please ask the pastoral personnel of the parish. They will surely make their archives available to you. You will then have the opportunity to read, search, consult and make your homework as a Medjugorje commentator.You raised the question. Shouldn't you be the one to do the responsible current follow-up? Or do you just continue with the drive by approach since you yourself can't seem to get beyond your outdated and therefore poor source of decades past? If you bring it up, do the same thorough investigation – IF you could! That would mean to actually get acquainted (up close and personal) with those you feel are too unworthy by apparently the neo Pharisaical standards.Well, Anonymous, you must know better than me. I suppose that the rigorous particular investigation of each was delved into by the Franciscans themselves and their own Commission of experts before the publication of Fr Rupcic’s book…And now you're additionally misinformed that somehow the good Franciscans are also medical professionals? Again, just where has there been that rigorous examination in your assessment? You simply admit here that you know of no equal assessment being done on each or any of the cases in question that YOU brought up yourself. Further individual medical inquiry? Apparently not! And remember … we're NOW in 2010!!

  22. Anonymous

    Daniel said… So, Father Laurentin, perhaps the foremost promoter of the legitimacy of the apparitions, couldn't get the medical board at Lourdes to accept a single case as a truly miraculous healing.I didn't know that we had any updated information beyond some quarter of a century old opinion quoted by the same man who mentioned here all of those other "non qualified" extraordinary "cures" that themselves (from Lourdes locale) did not meet the standards of the "bureau". You're talking apples and oranges and with decades of examination in differences. Next time, in category of fair comparison, use equal matter:According to Dr. Theodore Mangiapan, President of the Medical Bureau of Lourdes, at least 2,000 of the cures effected at Lourdes have been classified as “extraordinary or inexplicable” by doctors since 1858. Yet they have not been accepted as worthy to be published as "miraculous" within their own limiting parameters!

  23. Daniel

    I believe that you are correct that we do not have any updated information, there seem to be no documented miraculous cures despite the claims of some promoters to the contrary. Actually it seems that an Anonymous was the one that asked for documented proof, there seems to be none.

  24. Anonymous

    "I didn't know that we had any updated information beyond some quarter of a century old opinion"If you "didn't know", as you say, then how can you defend your position that there are documents in the parish office in Medjugorje? So, I guess you can't produce the proof I asked for.

  25. Daniel

    Anonymous, I think that Anonymous promoters have perhaps been given access to secret files that were never provided to prior commissions looking into the matter. These secret files will be made available to the Vatican Commission, provided that it is not somehow tainted against the visions. We'll know that the promotes determined that the Commission was tainted, and therefore secret files were withheld, if the Commission does not come out with a positive affirmation of the visions. There would be no point in turning over secret files that would be positive to the visions if it is suspected that the Commission is also at war with the beloved Franciscans that remain there against the local bishop's order.

  26. Anonymous

    Daniel said… I believe that you are correct that we do not have any updated information,You have no information at all!! Such criticism therefore is baseless and wholly disingenuous.

  27. Daniel

    "No information" is not quite correct, as I have the information that the Bishop had said the Fr. Laurentin had provided cases to Lourdes and they were found wanting. I am guessing that the bishop was never provided any information that would lead him to the conclusion that many miracles had occurred, since he remains so firmly opposed. I do not have access to any secret files that may have been withheld from the bishop, as I'm not an Anonymous promoter.

  28. Daniel

    Anonymous:You seem to want me to prove that there are no miracles. There may be, I'm merely stating that the Bishop had said that he felt there were none, and there has been no information to the contrary. If you know that there are miracles, it would seem you would be the one needing to provide information that it has been proven.

  29. Jordan

    Message of 25. April 2010 "Dear children! At this time, when in a special way you are praying and seeking my intercession, I call you, little children, to pray so that through your prayers I can help you to have all the more hearts be opened to my messages. Pray for my intentions. I am with you and I intercede before my Son for each of you. Thank you for having responded to my call.""Someone please help me understand why God would go to extraordinary means to come here and have Mary say these banal words. Open our hearts to the messages? What's in them that warrants an open heart? What substance? Pray not for the Pope or the Church, but that we may be able to listen to her messages? I just don't get it."Sure, I can help you. Jesus is always knocking at the door of our hearts (Revelation 3:20) and we must pray continuously that we may have the grace to hear Him and be open to Him and all of the grace He has waiting for us.Do you think our hearts can be opened without prayer? No, of course not. We need to pray and pray for our hearts to be open to the love of Jesus.Through praying for all of the intentions of Mary we are praying for the Church. You can read the footnote here provided by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops for Revelations chapter 12 which teaches us Mary represents the Church.http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/revelation/revelation12.htmMary is asking us to pray for the Church.I implore you though to not accuse Mary the Mother of God of repeating words too often when She is dong so out of mercy until we can understand them and live them.Now I ask you to listen to the words of the Virgin, Mary and pray for our beloved Church. Pray for all of her intentions so that you may join in the conversion of hearts and saving souls.

  30. Anonymous

    Jordan, What are the alleged apparitions intentions? In Lourdes,Mary brought us healing waters and asked for penance and prayers. She also backed up the Church Dogma of Her Immaculate Conception.In Fatima, Mary asked to pray the Rosary, do penance, and pray for the family and for the conversion of Russia and the end of the war.What is Medjugorje's alleged apparition's main intentions besides telling us to pray, pray and pray….and giving us ultimatums, and scary secrets such as the one that if one does not accept her messages it will be too late????Maria.

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